Greetings and salutations, my lovely Cosmere Chickens, and welcome to this week’s installment of the Stormlight Archive reread! This week we’re beginning our journey into Shadesmar along with Adolin, Shallan, and their crew. So prepare yourself for amazing sights, odd spren, Pattern’s perambulatory feet, and lots and lots of glass beads as we dive right in!
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes the novellas Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Heralds: Vedeledev (Vedel), Loving/Healing. Edgedancers. Role: Healer.
Ishi (Ishar). Pious/Guiding. Bondsmiths. Herald of Luck.
L: We often see Vedel in chapters about Adolin, especially when he’s interacting with Maya, who was a cultivationspren. As for ishar… He could be here to represent the discussion Adolin has with Godeke about religion, or he could also be symbolic of Adolin’s role in guiding this group into the unknown.
A: Ishar may also represent the willingness of (some of) the Oathgate spren to obey the Stormfather and Dalinar in the absence of the Sibling. Without that agreement, this whole expedition couldn’t happen.
Icon: The Shardbearer, indicating an Adolin POV chapter.
Epigraph:
I have reached out to the others as you requested, and have received a variety of responses.
A: There’s not a lot to say about this statement, but buckle up. In the upcoming epigraphs, we’ll get a stupendous amount of Shard-related information.
L: I do find it interesting, as usual, that the Shardholders communicate with one another. By letter? Or do they have a more supernatural means of doing so?
A: That’s a good question. I searched the Arcanum a bit, and couldn’t find any reference to how the Shards communicate with one another. Now I want to know!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin and Shallan
WHERE: Shadesmar (Urithiru). (L: I’m using the map from earlier as a reference as to where the specific cities and towns are located in Shadesmar, you can find it down in the Geography section. Celebrant is still a bit of a guess, however.)
WHEN: 1175.4.1.4 (same day as the last chapter)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
Adolin and company head into Shadesmar. They make their way down the ramp from Urithiru’s Oathgate platform and meet up with the barge that’s going to be taking them south. While settling in, Shallan makes a disturbing discovery: The spy has used Mraize’s box, without her knowledge.
Overall Reactions
The souls of all the objects that made up the physical world. Churning and mixing together, forming waves and surging tides, each composed of small beads no wider than his index finger.
L: I’m sure that there’s something deep and significant we could say about the interconnectivity of souls and emotions, and how each affects the others…
A: …but I have no idea what. I was just happy to see the size of the beads codified. I’d sometimes thought of them as seed-bead size—say, 8mm or so—while others were thinking fist-size. (I think the visceral reaction to people getting beads in their mouths and feeling like they were suffocating contributed to that tiny-bead perception.) Now we know, they’re about the size of a marble. Or, you know, the width of a tall man’s index finger.
L: For some reason I’d always thought of them as that size (like marbles).
The Book of Endless Pages cannot be filled… though your father made a very nice addition to the text.
Buy the Book
The Witness for the Dead
L: Each one of the titles of the Stormlight Archive books are based on books in the world. Back when Brandon was first starting work on RoW, The Book of Endless Pages was the working title (which a lot of people found really funny, considering how long his books usually wind up being). Since he decided on RoW, though, that means this one is still up for grabs! I hope we see it used eventually, as it’s a really cool title.
A: Given his reason for changing the Book 2 title, I doubt he’ll ever use it, but I’m sure glad someone had fun with it.
“Strange things in Shinovar.”
L: Ooooh, you don’t say?! I wonder what strange things those could be!
A: Unmade? Heralds? Sleepless? Could be almost anything, these days.
Spren and Shadesmar
“It is done as the Stormfather requires,” the marble one replied, voice booming. “Our parent, the Sibling, has died. We will obey him instead.”
L: I’m pointing this out specifically for the “parent” part. Very interesting that the Sibling appears to be the one who made the Oathgates—though that would explain why the central platform is at Urithiru.
A: That’s fascinating. It makes a lot of sense, given that the Sibling basically turned themself into a giant near-inaccessible fabrial city for the benefit of the Knights Radiant, that they also created a way to connect all the major kingdoms to one another and to the Tower. It also means that the Sibling was able to create intelligent spren, and I’m not sure what to think about the implications of that.
L: To create, or to elevate? Think about how Syl shifted from “mindless windspren” as her Bond with Kaladin grew. I wonder if the Sibling just took “normal” (or even Radiant) spren and granted them more power through means of a Bond to the physical Oathgate, or itself, or something. (Though… if they were Bonded to the Sibling, you would think they would know that it’s not dead.) Lending credence to this theory is the fact that the Oathgate spren do seem to resemble some spren we have seen… Rock, inky blackness (if memory serves)…
A: I recall that my initial reaction was that the black one might be an inkspren—its physical description was pretty similar to the description of Jasnah’s Ivory. It would make sense, right, to have the Oathgate spren be a variation of the spren who grant Transportation. But that would mean the second should look like a Willshaper spren, and… it doesn’t really. But it still makes sense that the Sibling might have, as you say, elevated willing spren from the existing families. Who knows, maybe there are other spren who affect Transportation, and they just aren’t part of the Nahel bonding ones.
Inevitably, this also makes me wonder about the timeline. When was the Sibling “born,” anyway? Am I even correct in thinking that the Tower was formed for the Knights Radiant, or did it originally have a different purpose? There’s so much we don’t yet know…)
But the tower itself was far more majestic than any other sight. Adolin turned around, gazing up at the shimmering mountain of light and colors. The mother-of-pearl radiance didn’t exactly mimic the shape of the tower, but had a more crystalline feel to it. Except it wasn’t physical, but light. Radiant, resplendent, and brilliant.
L: That’s so cool. I hope we get artwork of it eventually!
A: I’m… hesitant. What if the artwork doesn’t live up to my imagination? This is such a gorgeous word picture.
L: It would have to be in color, for sure. A black and white piece of art wouldn’t come close to conveying the beauty.
Adolin ignored the odd spren, instead introducing Maya to his team. He’d told them to expect her, so they each bowed respectfully and didn’t stare at her strange eyes too much. Ledder even complimented her appearance as a Blade, saying he’d always admired her beauty.
L: Awwww, I like this Ledder guy already.
A: Right? It was thoughtful of Adolin to tell them what to expect, and to take the time to introduce her to his men. But Ledder went a step beyond—to not only bow respectfully, but to have thought about something meaningful to say to her. Good man, there.
L: Well, Adolin is an excellent judge of character.
Humans in the Physical Realm were represented here as lights like floating candle flames. A group of them gathered near the horse and were interacting with some shimmering, glowing blue colors.
A: That would be Adolin’s Shardplate, which didn’t make the shift and so is being collected by his armorers, to be sent along to the Emuli battlefront. I wonder why it’s shimmering blue. Does that imply that this set of Plate once belonged to a Windrunner?
…the path wasn’t nearly as long as it would be in the Physical Realm. Space wasn’t a one-to-one correlation in Shadesmar. Things seemed more compressed here, specifically in the vertical dimension.
A: We had a hint at this in Sja-anat’s Interlude, too, where she mentioned the way she was in both realms at once, and they were spatially… different. “Space was not entirely equal between the realms” is the way she said it—as she flowed up steps in one, while barely moving in the other.
They’d find ground where rivers ran after highstorms or at the edges of the continent, where the oceans began in the real world.
L: I wonder what happens with transient bodies of water? Like rivers that only exist when there’s storm runoff?
A: I think that’s what much of the Shadesmar ground is, actually. IIRC, many of the rivers in the physical realm are totally dependent on rainfall rather than groundwater. Like much of Shadesmar, it’s a matter of perception.
L: So because there’s a riverbed, the ground “sees” itself as a river just waiting to be filled, and hence manifests as solid ground in Shadesmar? That would make sense.
“I think those are gloryspren,” Adolin said. “Emotion spren are like this world’s animals. They get pulled through to our side when they sense some kind of strong emotion, and we see them in distorted ways.”
L: So they’re attracted to emotions, not the manifestations of such…
A: Yes… maybe… I think so… Seriously, though, I do think that for the most part, the spren exist in Shadesmar all the time, and are drawn to the things they represent. Even so, I can’t help suspecting some kind of symbiosis—that they are drawn to their “thing” and their presence amplifies it. Or maybe that’s just the spren of physical phenomena, and not emotionspren. ::sighs::
And don’t let [the Honorspren] try to blame you for what Radiants did before.”
L: At least Adolin has the advantage there, not being a Radiant himself!
A: Yeah, but he has a deadeye, so they’ll still blame him. I think they’d blame him just for being human, truth be told.
“Kasiden peakspren, from the east? They are fools! Forget them.”
“You have… different nationalities?”
“Obviously!
L: This is good to know! I think a lot of us, like Adolin, had fallen into the trap of thinking of the spren as one homogenous culture.
A: Or at least each “family” of spren, in this case the peakspren.
L: Yeah, that’s what I meant, sorry—that wasn’t terribly clear.
A: It had never occurred to me until this moment that the same kind of spren from different parts of the planet would see themselves as different groups. I wonder if that’s why some of the honorspren were willing to bond even though the majority won’t—because they lived somewhere else and considered themselves independent of the “ruling body” in Lasting Integrity.
As soon as the mandras were hooked to the vessel, it rose a little higher in the beads.
L: Hmm, interesting. Are the mandras up above the ferry, pulling it up? Or are they out front, and there’s something about them that warps gravity?
A: There is definitely something about them that warps gravity; these are the spren that allow skyeels and larkin to fly, and keep greatshells from collapsing under their own weight. I don’t think they had begun to pull, at this point; merely being connected to the mandras makes the ship more… floaty. (Sure, it’s a word. I just used it!)
Relationships and Romances
I’ll do my part, Father, Adolin thought. I’ll give them your letters, but I’ll do more. I’ll find a way to persuade them to help us. And I’ll do it my way.
The trick, of course, was to discover what his way was in the first place.
A: So, ouch, foreshadowing, since the honorspren reject the entire premise of their careful plan and he completely wings it in a way that truly is unique to him. But the big reason I wanted to include this was the relationship aspect. We talked last week about his (understandable) anger toward Dalinar, but he still loves the man and wants to make him proud. It’s on display again here, and will be repeatedly throughout this journey.
Relationships are complicated, you know? I’m not sure either of them are aware how highly Dalinar values his son; it’s there between the lines, but he so often assumes Adolin’s excellence without overt acknowledgement. As a result, a frequent theme to Adolin’s thoughts is his inability to please his father, never realizing that the reason Dalinar was so disappointed by the Sadeas affair was that it was such a Blackthorn thing to do.
L: I don’t know… I think Adolin understands that, now. Understanding what the problem is doesn’t always necessarily mean that it can be easily resolved, though.
A: Perhaps he does. Of course, now it’s made even more complicated by learning about how his mother died, so resolution is definitely not straightforward! But I believe that, without either of them registering it, Dalinar has always thought Adolin was essentially perfect, marred only by a few silly foibles like a penchant for dueling and a fascination with fashion. His disappointment now is that Adolin actually did something he thinks was wrong, not just silly, and he doesn’t know how to deal with that.
Well, that was a little more philosophy than I’d intended… or is justified by this chapter, for that matter! But there it is.
Bruised, Broken, and Disabled
“Stump,” Arshqqam said through her spren, seeming wistful. “That is what the children called me. A nickname. The only other person who ever gave me a term of endearment was my father. The children see me as a person, when so many others have trouble. So the Stump I am. A glorious title, to come from children.”
L: This is really beautiful. Leave it to children to leave all prejudices by the wayside and simply accept someone for who they are and not who they appear to be.
A: Call me a sap, but I almost cried over this. There has been concern among the readership that Lift was spreading an insulting name, and some felt it was rude for everyone else to use it. I’m so happy for this little paragraph; not only does it validate the name, it gives amazing insight into a character we scarcely know.
Someone had moved the cube. Somehow, between packing and arriving on the barge, someone had rifled through her things and used the cube. She could come to only one conclusion.
The spy was indeed on this mission—and they were using this very device to report to Mraize.
A: I’m still trying to figure out how it was used after packing and before they got to the boat. The only thing I can figure is that it was after she packed her trunks but while they were still in her rooms, because once you have stuff strapped on a packhorse, ain’t nobody getting in there without it being obvious.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
Even Jasnah, whose powers supposedly allowed it, had trouble bringing herself back from Shadesmar.
L: I wonder why… Is there an amount of energy that is required to travel between the realms, and going in one direction takes more than the other?
A: I would love to be able to answer this question. However, I seriously have no idea why it works this way. I mean… we know it takes a lot of Stormlight to go from the Cognitive to the Physical without a perpendicularity, which is why Jasnah has charged gemstones sewn into all her clothing all the time. But why it’s easier to go one way than the other? I have no idea.
He’d felt her emotions through the sword; in fact, he felt like he’d always been able to sense her encouraging him.
L: Just counting down until the inevitable moment of Adolin reawakening Maya, and I’m so here for it.
A: ::hearteyes::
All my life I lived with a deformity—and then in an instant I was transformed and healed. I became what I’d always seen myself as being. Your father has undergone a more vibrant transformation.
L: We’ve known for a long time that Investiture has a lot to do with how the user sees things as being (such as Kaladin’s scars not healing until he stops seeing himself as a slave/dangerous), so this is a really interesting note about Dalinar wanting so badly to change that he forces it to happen. Sort of like… a really over-the-top version of “dress for the job you want, not the one you have.”
A: This fascinates me. We’re not told what the “deformity” was, just that it was lifelong—but for Godeke, it was clearly something he lived with rather than something he saw as part of himself. The distinction is significant, and hints that the spren bond will have different effects on different people. Godeke’s was apparently a physical issue; Dalinar’s was a heart issue. And it was healed. I feel like there’s a deep theological discussion to be had here, but I’m not quite up for that just now! (Would have been a great conversation to have with the original Godeke, though.)
L: I’ll say that I do appreciate what it looks like Brandon is trying to do here in regards to disability. It’s a trope that disabled folx are “fixed” by magic in many fantasy books, and a good portion of the disabled community hates that trope because it’s removing representation. There’s also a lot of people who love the trope, because it’s wish fulfillment for them. It seems as though Brandon is managing to bridge this gap by giving his characters a form of agency. If they view their disability as an integral part of who they are, there’s no reason for them to be “healed” of it. I really respect this.
A: I look forward to the discussion in the comments on this subject!
Geography, History, and Cultures
Most agreed that the safest path for Adolin’s group was to sail almost directly south until they hit land. From there, they could caravan southwest—along the Tukari coastline in the real world—until they reached Lasting Integrity.
A: Let’s take note here, okay? They’re sailing south from Urithiru, and will end up following the Tukari coastline. At some point during the show, they’re going to be in very nearly the same place as Dalinar, except for the realm difference.
L: This will be pretty obvious on the animated Physical/Cognitive maps I do for the chapters! Also, note that you can see a canon representation of their path on this map from earlier in the book:
Humans
Adolin raised a hand toward them as he stepped across the platform. “Thank you, Ancient Ones!” he called.
L: Yet more examples of Adolin treating everyone the same, be they human, spren, or otherwise.
A: This was brilliant. It’s just so Adolin.
Isasik the mapmaker thought the place was incredible for reasons Adolin hadn’t been able to grasp, despite having it explained to him three times.
L: Another tuckerization to point out! This is Isaac, who is the artist behind most of the maps and symbols in Brandon’s books. (And also one of the sweetest people on the planet.)
A: Hi, Isaac!
“Zu, what did you used to do?”
“Make trouble, mostly,” the Iriali woman said.
A: Hey, it’s our first Stoneward, and she’s a hoot! Also worth noting, our first Iriali, with her metallic-bronze skin and metallic-golden (not blonde) hair.
Adolin fell into line beside Godeke. The Edgedancer kept staring at the sky, grinning like a child with a new sword. “The works of the Almighty are wondrous,” he said. “To think, this beauty was always here with us.”
L: ::tears up:: Steve, whose tuckerization this is, would have loved this.
A: Indeed he would. The whole conversation about the Almighty, Honor, the Heralds—Steve would have truly appreciated it.
Flora and Fauna of the Physical Realm
When Gallant moved, he trailed a faint shadow of light. It was almost imperceptible.
L: This sounds a little like what happens with Szeth, after his death and rebirth…
A: It does, but I don’t think it’s the same thing. With Szeth, his soul had come unstuck and Nale pinned it back on, but not quite properly. With Gallant, I think… well, we’ll talk about it more later, but I think this is his bonded musicspren’s physical form overlaid on Gallant’s. They’re almost the same size and shape, here in Shadesmar.
The horse blew out in annoyance, then looked at Adolin’s brush.
“Yes,” Adolin replied. “I brought all three. You think I’d bring seven different swords but forget your brushes?”
A: I couldn’t decide where to put this, so it’s here with the other bit about Gallant. It’s just one more example of Adolin being courteous to everyone—even his horse. Okay, Ryshadium, so more than a horse, but still. He definitely remembered to bring all three brushes. And the next bit, where Maya voluntarily helps curry Gallant? Beautiful.
Arresting Artwork
L: Shallan’s notes on the artwork:
- The porcelain masks sometimes catch the light and sparkle almost translucently. When a mistspren speaks, its mask’s lips do not move, nor does the spren’s expression change.
- Many of the mistspren I encountered worked aboard the mandra ships, and their clothing and gear reflected that occupation.
- Mistspren can determine how they appear in Shadesmar.
- They usually choose a shape like a person, but they don’t have to.
- They appear in the physical realm like the light reflected onto a surface from a sunbeam passing through a crystal, regardless of whether a surface or light exists when they appear.
A: I’m so excited to get Shallan’s drawings of all the spren in this series! With notes, of course. It’s a nice callback to her “natural history” drawings from the first two books, except now it’s in Shadesmar.
The last spren was the oddest to Adolin. She seemed to be made entirely from mist, all save for the face, which hovered on the front of the head in the shape of a porcelain mask. That mask had a kind of twinkling reflection to it, always catching the light—in fact, he could have sworn that from some perspectives it was made of translucent crystal.
L: Ah, an uncorrupted Truthwatcher spren! These are soooooo cool looking. I mean… all the spren are cool, but this one is particularly neat. I especially like the masks.
A: We saw a few of these in Oathbringer, but we didn’t have a name or much of a description. Not like this kind of detail, anyway. It’s very cool to find that my guess was right, and they’re the Truthwatcher spren.
“We mistspren can choose our forms, you know. We usually choose a shape like a person, but we don’t need to. You seem so fascinated. Do you think me pretty, or do you think me a monster?”
L: You’d think that this would hold true for most of the spren, being able to choose how they’re viewed… like the cultivationspren, why don’t the vines take different forms? Perhaps there’s something about expectations/energy holding them in certain forms?
A: I suspect it has something to do with how their original bond-holders imagined them to be, but that’s just me suspecting things. It makes sense that a spren literally made of mist can look like whatever they want. At the same time, it is odd that the honorspren can do whatever they want with their “clothing,” but they don’t seem to be able to change their form in Shadesmar. Huh.
Oh, one quick note—Godeke’s cultivationspren is named Archinal, for those keeping track.
Brilliant Buttresses
Adolin trailed off as someone else put their arm around him, then around Shallan. Adolin twisted his head to find Pattern standing behind them, giving both of them a hug.
L: AWWWWW Pattern wants a hug too!
A: I couldn’t decide whether to laugh or shudder the first time I read this. I mean… it’s Pattern, after all, so laughter won out, but before I saw who it was it honestly kinda creeped me out. But Pattern. With his “befittingly perambulatory” feet!!! Yeah, laughter definitely won.
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others!
Alice is remembering why her username is Wetlander, as the rain in the PNW continues. It was a rainy February twelve years ago when she first became part of the Tor community, with comments on Leigh Butler’s Wheel of Time reread.
Lyndsey has been a Sanderson beta reader since Words of Radiance and is also a fantasy author herself. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram. She’s been doing weekly tie-in videos to the reread on TikTok as well.
“For some reason I’d always thought of them as that size (like marbles).” I always envisioned marbles too.
“Think about how Syl shifted from “mindless windspren” as her Bond with Kaladin grew”. This is an item that confuses me. Syl was mostly mindless and only came together as Kaladin progressed in his oaths. But we see many spren, Honorspren, Reachers, etc, in Shadesmar who have their full faculties and they aren’t bonded. Have we seen any other Radiant spren act mindless?
@1 – Crossing into the physical realm seems to sap most of the spren’s sentience. They slowly regain it through the bond with the Radiant. That is what the spren gain from the bond.
Dawnshard is a novel. It expanded. No, that isn’t important, but I am compulsive.
The Stormfather also “created” intelligent spren, specifically Honorspren, after Honor’s death, and now all the senior Honorspren do it. It is apparently not that hard. Syl thinks she can do it, but never has.
Pattern is just that. In the Physical Realm, he’s just a raised/embossed pattern on various surfaces that moves around. He could just slide inside a pack, or trunk, without opening either.
Carl @3 – but if Pattern just slid inside her packed trunk to use the seon, how/why would the cube have been physically rotated?
I’m not sure I agree that Kaladin’s forehead scars healed “he stopped seeing himself as a slave/dangerous”. My take on that is, at some level he viewed being made a slave and branded as being a just punishment for failing Tien. So then when he finally accepted that he couldn’t have saved Tien, and that he can’t save everybody, that’s when the scars stopped being part of his self-image.
Pattern moved the box in his Shadesmar form, but the trouble is that there wasn’t much of a timeline for Pattern to do it. And I’m not sure Pattern understands the concept of stealth on his own.
I always pictured Physical!Pattern to move around like the drawn jellyfish in that SpongeBob episode with the doodle.
Through the fourth dimension? Was there maybe a bit of open space inside the trunk? I only remembered it as being moved, not rotated, to be more honest.
I’m thinking it would need to be animated in a manner similar to the logo. Pulsing or moving light would be a must.
Crazy theory time: I think this all ties back to how the last Sibling Bondsmith (Melishi?) trapped Bo-Ado-Mishram. I think the effect of that was to warp the connection between Roshar and Shadesmar. This is also what made the Parshmen unable to bond spren, created deadeyes, and nearly killed the Sibling.
As far as I can remember, none of those latter results were planned, but all happened because of the same action. And, all relate to how bonds are created between those on Roshar and those in Shadesmar, be they regular spren (for Parshmen), high spren (Nahel bonds), or the Sibling (who created the Oathgate spren, linking the two realms).
Adolin is such a dear :) It’s funny, when I first started reading the book, I wasn’t sure how much I would like the series, as Adolin (and Kaladin to an extent) seemed like rather generic characters to me, and Adolin especially seemed like the jock-ish swordsman type I typically don’t enjoy.
I thought that Syl was a special case because of how she lost her Radiant. Just a generic Wind spren can make plate but not become sentient. She calls them her “cousins” which made me think they aren’t exactly the same.
Chapter 22 is where I formed one of my theories that turned out wrong. I believed that during the 2nd half of OB (where Brandon said that Rhlain’s absence was deliberate) that he found the rest of the Listeners (those that did not change to Stormform in ROW and left Narak) and they are hiding under the caves in Urithiru. In Chapter 22 when Adolin sees the reflection of additional souls in the areas of the caves, I thought he was not seeing extra soldiers. Rather, I thought he was seeing the Listeners. I also thought those Listeners would have been key to helping defend Urithiru in the Fused raid. 100% wrong on that theory.
Question. Now that the Sibling has awoken and bonded Navani, does that mean all the Oathgate spren will allow the Knights Radiants to activate the Oathgates on Shademar side? I wonder if Book 5 will have a scene where an Oathgate spren comment that the Sibling has withdrew their prior order that some of the Oathgate spren were following before the Sibling’s bonding.
Alice and Lyndsey. The map in the Chapter Recap section is amazing the way you get it to go back and forth automatically between the map of Roshar and the map of Shadesmar. Very tech savvy.
Lyndsey and Alice. There is a typo in your summary/recap.
“L: Each one of the titles of the Stormlight Archive books are based on books in the world. Back when Brandon was first starting work on RoW, The Book of Endless Pages was the working title (which a lot of people found really funny, considering how long his books usually wind up being). Since he decided on RoW, though, that means this one is still up for grabs! I hope we see it used eventually, as it’s a really cool title.”
It is my understanding that the original working title of Words of Radiance (WoR) was the Book of Endless Pages. As such, your references to “RoW” in the paragraph I quoted above should be “WoR”. Egg on my face, however, if I am mistaken.
David_Goldfarb @5. I agree with your theory about Kaladin and his scar.
RogerPavelle @8. I disagree partially. Spren could always bond with Parshmen (i.e., Listeners or Singers). The Spren had decided not to bond Singers. After Timbre bonds Venli, Timbre is able to convince other Willshapers to bond Listeners. They choose to give Listeners another chance.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
It’s a spaceship. I am calling this now, and you can cite me once I’m right. :D
It appears that for most fans, Sanderson’s approach to disability healing and not-healing successfully balances differing reader needs. But as I’ve repeatedly ranted on Tor, I have complicated feelings about it. My lifelong visual impairment is inescapably an integral part of who I am, because it shapes my every living moment and I can’t imagine what not having it would be like — but there are plenty of reasons why I desperately wish it could be cured. Stormlight might cure my depression and chronic pain, because they’re things that happened to me in adulthood and not part of my core identity as depression is for Kaladin, but I would be mighty miserable if my colleagues’ physical disabilities all got healed and mine didn’t. Mind you, some of my visual limitations might be less of a problem on Roshar where nobody drives motor vehicles, emotionspren would help compensate for my inablity to see facial expressions, and there’s not much vertebrate wildlife to (try to) watch. But it might pose other problems instead.
Having said all of that, I recall that becoming a Radiant did heal Renarin’s visual impairment. But I don understand why. Was the impairment a lifelong condition for him? Or something that developed over time, such that he could remember the person he was when he didn’t have it? Or something that was fully correctable with glasses (as mine is not), such that it hadn’t completely shaped his perception of the world? In any case, I was unhappy about this development, because it made Renarin somewhat less relatable.
And now things are complicated further by the revelation that Godeke’s “deformity” had been lifelong, but had not prevented him from imagining who he would be without it. I don’t understand how to achieve such a mindset. But even if I as a reader figured out how this magic system could have cured my vision if it existed, I’d still be unhappy because it doesn’t exist.
So I dislike any implication that any of my disabilities “shouldn’t” be cured if if was possible, but I also dislike seeing people get cured of them while I can’t, but I would like the series less if it didn’t have a wealth of disabled characters. Perhaps I would like it if they were present but none of them ever got healed, yet that would reduce their value to readers who benefit from wish fulfillment; I’m too bitter and envious to like wish fulfillment portrayals that I didn’t write for myself. Conclusion: writers should do their best, and Sanderson certainly does, but you can’t please everyone and some people are impossible to please.
Further complicated feelings regarding Kaladin to follow in a chapter or two, and then I’ll try to stop ranting.
This series seldom has enough ocean-related things for me, so I was disappointed to learn, long after I first saw a map of Shadesmar, that its ocean was made of beads instead of water. (I had read the WoK scene involving the sea of beads, but hadn’t really connected it with what I found when belatedly searching the internet for a Stormlight Archive map to supplement my audiobook). Still, I enjoy the portrayal of a place were land and water are the inverse of those in another place, so detailed that lakes are islands and rivers are long strips of land. And I enjoy all descriptions of the place’s wildlife and sapient residents, though I always want more.
I think my golden hair has a rather metallic hue and luster, especially in strong light, so I’ve wondered if it remotely resembles Iriali hair.
@9: Yeah. I didn’t much like Adolin when I first read WoK, and thought Shallan’s subsequent betrothal to him was a bad idea that couldn’t possibly work, given the way he attempted and failed at relationships with a long succession of young women. It was my first Cosmere novel, so I didn’t yet know of Sanderson’s penchant for portraying Perfectly Arranged Marriages.
Lyndsey, is Zu supposed to be patterned after you?! Or did Brandon just like the name?
@goddessimho:
In Oathbringer, Syl says, “We’re made of power, bits of gods. There are places where that power coalesces, and parts start to be aware. You go, and then come back with a child? I think? … It doesn’t happen often … It’s rare. Most spren will go hundreds of years without doing it.”
Later, Notum tells Kaladin, “The Stormfather created only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the Recreance, becoming deadeyes. This loss stung the Stormfather, who didn’t create again for centuries. When he was finally moved to remake the honorspren, he created only ten more. My great-grandmother was among them; she created my grandfather, who created my father, who eventually created me.”
So making sapient spren is not limited to Syl.
Remember back when Jasnah gave Shallan a Book of Endless Pages and spoke about how a dear friend tried to encourage her to join that devotary instead of becoming an apostate? Ever since I read this chapter, I’ve wondered if it was Godeke.
I also want him and Beryl to discuss philosophy. More on that as we get to know her a bit better, but I think discussions between them would be interesting.
Thanks for doing this, I eagerly look forward to each «episode»! I love the art in the book. I use my kindle, but I always end up bying a physical book as well. The kindle has a small screen and it is difficult to see the nice drawings.
Pattern is the best! Did we find out what Zu used to do in her home land?
Carl @7 – “I only remembered it as being moved, not rotated, to be more honest.”
The conclusion that someone “had rifled through her things” is inescapable. My only conclusion is that Pattern must have found the opportunity to open that trunk, either in “checking over the luggage” when they first arrived, or more likely during a break in the downward trek. It seems hard to believe no one would have noticed, but then (I tell myself) no one would have been looking for suspicious activity from the spren anyway.
RogerPavelle @8 – “Crazy theory time: I think this all ties back to how the last Sibling Bondsmith (Melishi?) trapped Bo-Ado-Mishram.”
You may be right; there seem to be a lot of things subtly connected to that action. We’ve been told that broken Ideals didn’t cause deadeyes before the Recreance, along with a few hints of other things. Perhaps transfer between realms is a matter of Connection and was affected. If all these things really are connected, it becomes more and more important to find and release an Unmade, however much that goes against the grain.
AndrewHB @11 – I, too, had an untenable theory about all those lights that Adolin thinks are the additional guards Navani wanted. I thought they were Venli, Raboniel, and company working their way up through the mountains – but then it turns out that the timeline is all wrong for that. At this point, they’d have still been a long ways away. Oh well.
“Now that the Sibling has awoken and bonded Navani, does that mean all the Oathgate spren will allow the Knights Radiants to activate the Oathgates on Shademar side?” A question I’m more interested in is whether the Sibling can tell the Oathgate spren to distinguish between who is attempting to use the gates. Could they activate all the gates, but only allow them to be activated by “Dalinar’s people” – those who are committed to defending the humans? Or is it a case of “open for any, open for all” in which case we definitely want certain gates to remain locked.
Come to think of it… could the Sibling direct the Shinovar-gate spren at Urithiru to speak to the ones in Shinovar, and allow that gate to be used without someone getting safely into Shinovar to unlock it? Or will Kaladin & Szeth have to fly (fall) all the way there to get access?
Re: The Book of Endless Pages, yes, the RoW is a typo; it should have been WoR. Those are so easy to invert, for some odd reason. We may have to go back to spelling things out!
I disagree with your disagreement with Roger, though. I think he’s referring to the inability of the thereafter-parshmen to bond with spren to gain their usual forms, rather than Nahel bonding. That was a direct result of the imprisonment of BAM, and had world-wide effects for all the singers who were Connected to her.
manavortex @12 – Unfortunately, Brandon already shot down the spaceship idea. Unless he changes his mind; he’s done that once or twice.
AeronaGreenjoy @13 – The question of magical healing of lifelong medical issues is indeed a complex one. I think it’s fair to assume, though, that people with different thought processes than mine might be able to imagine different things than I could. And of course, people define themselves in different ways. To use an example from my own family, where a genetic hearing impairment crops up every so often, for some people it’s natural to identify as specifically “a deaf person” where for others it’s just a thing that affects but doesn’t define them. Personally, I thought it was nice to see that it works differently for different people, mostly because people are so very different from one another.
JanDSedai @15 – I’m not Lyndsey, but since she generally does her comment interaction in other places and may not see this, I’ll answer. I doubt Zu is supposed to be patterned after her, if only because she’s already in the books as Lyn. I’m not saying it’s not possible, and I haven’t seen any indication that Zu is a tuckerization for anyone else, but I don’t think it’s likely that Brandon would put the same person in twice. (Well, except for Peter, who has something named for him in several different series. But he’s a special case.)
ingunn_d @18 – You’re welcome! Glad to have you here! For what it’s worth, the artwork is all available to view on Brandon’s website, as well. It’s not quite the same as having a physical copy, but it has the advantage that you can zoom in.
About Zu, she seems … quite disinterested in discussing her past. All we really know is from this chapter, where we learned that she spent some time as a guide in the Reshi isles, and the previous one, where we learned that her people had given her the boot when her powers began to manifest. We learn a lot about her personality, but not much about her past.
This week, I was glad to hear the continuation of Alice and Lyndsey’s thoughts on the matter of the Adolin/Dalinar relationship.
What do I think?
I think Alice is right in saying Dalinar does value Adolin, does think of him highly though also assumes Adolin naturally reaches excellence without needing outward praise nor nudging. This belief is likely to have caused Dalinar to be so disappointed (or confused) in Adolin when he fails to meet those expectations and starts acting like a teenage boy in need of reconnaissance.
My reading of the character is Adolin wants, seeks, desperately needs outward validation. None of it is easy for him as the man he has always tried to be isn’t him and demands constant effort on his part to pull out. His eagerness to please is, in large part, responsible for how easy it seems and thus having Dalinar think Adolin puts no effort towards being so damn perfect. It has him completely misread his own son. In other words, Adolin struggles. This perfect image he projects demands him to forgo parts of himself, but since he is so good at being perfect, no one thinks it’s actually hard.
All of this is why, I think, Dalinar does not know what to do with his rebellious son right now. Now, I don’t think Dalinar is necessarily disappointed (though both Adolin and Dalinar think of it as disappointment), I think he is worried. Concerned. He does not want his son to reproduce his own mistakes and, in a way, he isn’t wrong. Agreeing to remove a political enemy in a dark alley sets a dangerous precedent. It removes inhibitions and Adolin lacks repentance for the crime does imply he would do it again, for other opponents, any opponents. Dalinar isn’t wrong to worry. Alas, Adolin doesn’t see the worry, he only sees what he has seen all his life: his failure at being as perfect as expected.
I am not sure Adolin understands all of it. I do not think he understands Dalinar cares about him. I think all he understands is love conditional on his successes. He wants his father to be proud of him. He sees Kholinar as a failure on his part. He does not want, cannot accept to bring back another failure, so he is willing to succeed, no matter the cost.
I find it a very complex relationship, one with love, expectations, and two individuals who simply do not know how to communicate with each other. I definitely think Adolin believes he is the lesser man, but since he is a fighter, he also tries to be worthy though this is a quest he is unlikely to ever feel satisfied with.
This is jumping ahead a lot, but its ironic that later in the book (Ch 54) we find the relationship between Dalinar and Renarin has improved, compared to Dalinar and Adolin. He knows how to get through to Renarin now and even tells him what a blessing he is. Its funny to think that maybe Dalinar accepts Renarin more because they have both been tainted by Odium to some degree. Even Dalinar’s “visions” are similar to Renarin’s episodes, as Dalinar himself acknowledged.
At the same time Renarin is willing to look at Dalinar’s muder of Evi as “Odium seeing her killed,” that it is “better to turn his pain against the enemy than to lose his father along with his mother.” Renarin understands the effect Odium had on Dalinar from his visions of Dalinar being Odium’s intended champion, and is willing to place the blame away from his father entirely. Adolin places the blame on his father alone. I wonder if the brothers have even talked about this and how much conflict this could cause between them.
@22 Gaz. One of the narrative elements I was slightly disappointed in, within RoW, is realizing Adolin and Renarin no longer seem to have a close relationship. I felt as if Renarin moved away, have his new friends, his new status, and now he has no need for Adolin as “emotional support”, he no longer bothers with his brother. In other words, all Adolin is good for is to provide emotional support, take that away and no everyone ignores him. He’s basically just there to fill other people’s needs, but no one cares about him as a person. His discourse in one of the later chapters does go in this sense: Adolin feels others don’t think of him as a person.
That could be the wrong reading, but that’s the one I got from the book.
@Gepeto: be fair to the narrative. Renarin and Adolin spend almost all of RoW in different planes of existence. Also (spoiler) they’re both involved in new romances at the same time as life-and-death emergencies. It’s not that unnatural they wouldn’t be constantly thinking about each other. Note also that Renarin isn’t even a major supporting character in this one, and we get nothing much about his life when he isn’t impinging on protagonists.
Wait, what? Did I completely miss a romance with Renarin? I did kind of binge the book while I had it fom the library but that TOTALLY went over my head.
@Lisamarie, it’s only hinted at, at the very end of the book. I didn’t pick it up from the text either, but other fans did and Brandon confirmed. I feel obligated to spoiler-protect it, since it isn’t obvious in the prose.
Brandon confirmed that Renarin has feelings for Rlain.
@26 – That’s not a romance; it’s a crush. For now, at least.
@austin: still distracting Renarin, which was my only point.
Oh wow, I definitely didn’t read any of their interactions that way (but again, I didn’t focus on it) but I’m hardly one to talk as I totally get shippy vibes for both Kaladin and Leshwi, and Navani/Raboniel (obviously that’s a more problematic type of ship and not intended to be an endorsement of a relationship with those dynamics).
@13 AeronaGreenjoy and others, Re: disability healing
I don’t find it a stretch to think that someone with a congenital disability could heal themselves without knowing exactly what “healed” is like, but wanting to experience that state. I mean, it’s not like Renarin studied how eyes worked before fixing his, so why should “clear vision” be any more miraculous than “get all of the anatomy and physiology right down to the molecular level”?
The reread comments have talked a lot about the Spiritual implications of how you truly see yourself, but less about what you desire yourself to be, and I think that’s a significant piece of the puzzle. (And possibly why Khriss is so interested in Lightweaving.)
I see a major theme of the whole SA as becoming the best version of *you* you can be. Most of our Radiants have absolutely no clue what that looks like, but they know it’s there, and they figure out each step to take in the right direction. I don’t think it’s an accident that Godeke drew a parallel between his transformation and that of Dalinar, who is probably the most Spiritually at sea regarding his own ideal state (but trying really, really hard to take each next step).
@Gepeto, Re: Adolin and Dalinar
I enjoyed snarky-and-bitter Adolin last chapter, simply because it was good to see him acknowledge and express those feelings — even if not in the most healthy, mature, or appropriate way. This chapter, I read his “I’ll do my part… my way” as biting and defiant, not wistful or pleading, and the raw edge stuck out in this otherwise peaceful segment. I am starting to wonder if he’s not just been hiding his negative emotions but actually repressing them, and now they are shaking loose with unpredictable results.
I’ve been known to shove down my own anger so far I don’t even register that I felt, or should have felt, it. My last boss was verbally abusive, and for a long time I would have told you in all sincerity that I was fine. It was so liberating to realize, “You know what? I’m not fine. I’m angry. I do not deserve this treatment, and I am angry, and I deserve to be angry.”
Adolin’s situation is a lot more complicated, but the frothing, bubbling emotions he’s not used to feeling? Yeah, I get that.
I guess it gets to the question of what an identity is. What am I but the sum of my experiences, perceptions, preferences, thoughts, decisions, and actions? All of these, every moment of my life, are shaped by the boundaries of what I can and cannot see. I “accepted” it as an incurable part of myself ever since I first knew I had it, because what else could I do? I don’t know what it’s like to exist with full vision, as Kaladin doesn’t know what it’s like to exist without the lens and driving force of depression. And I don’t really think — don’t want to think — that I would be my “best” self if I had full vision. Happier, more able to do the things I love most and to connect with other people, but fundamentally better? Given that this can’t actually happen, I don’t like to think of myself that way.
Maybe someone whose disability isn’t sensory would have an easier time imagining themself without it. But some people with sensory disabilities evidently do manage that.
I realize that Cosmere applications of the term Identity refer to something else, a “Spiritual” attribute that’s…more intrinsic, less shaped by external forces. And that it interacts more intricately with Physical and Cognitive aspects of a person in determining the course of healing. But this is all stuff I don’t really understand, and haven’t figured out how to apply to myself in any way that’s not misery-making.
@31
I haven’t had the same issues you have, certainly not to the same extent, so I don’t know what I would need to do to cope with your experiences. I have needed glasses on and off for over forty years. I’ve had lasik to fix vision. I’ve had cataract surgery to fix vision. Given that history, I have no problem believing that I would magically fix my eyes or any other issues that might come up with my health.
@30 Laran. I do agree with your statement. I do think Adolin is repressing a great many negative feelings, anger and resentment, but also the guilt that comes with feeling those.
I do think he is angry at Dalinar, angry for what he did, for the expectations he put on it, but he also resents never being treated as a person. He resents how Dalinar never seems to listen to him, to consider his opinion, how Dalinar implies he is unable to make his own choices. He loves his father, but a part of him also acknowledged his father did mistreat him, but he does not want to go there, he does not want to deal with it, because he feels guilty about those feelings. He feels he shouldn’t be angry, he should be proud of Dalinar instead, that it is wrong to be angry and ressentful. He probably feels very guilty for being childish enough to resent how others take him for granted. He probably thinks others are right to treat him the way they do and if he has a problem with it, then it means he is a lesser person, that he can’t withstand the flow or he is being childish and selfish.
A bit like your work example. Adolin does not think it is OK for him to have negative feelings towards those he loves. He thinks it is not OK to blame them for how they have treated him.
I also think a very deeply secured part of Adolin probably resents Shallan for behaving the same as Dalinar and for expecting Adolin to be perfect… On the day he needed her, Shallan was not there. After all, he did for her, all he endured for her, on the very day he wanted emotional support, she was elsewhere. I was disappointed in how little the elements introduced with those golden chapters played into the ending. Sanderson introduces good elements here, I wanted them to keep on playing a role, not for the story to end with “everyone is happy, problems are, once again, ignored”.
Adolin believes he isn’t a person because no one ever treated him as one. Everyone always took him for granted and all treats him as if he were perfect, not just Dalinar, but everyone else too. Because Adolin doesn’t feel like a person, he developed a behavior where he considers he should be giving away all he is, even his life.
The snarky comment at the end was telling: Adolin will succeed in his mission even if it costs him his life. He is not a person, so nothing he has truly ever was his, including his life: all he is exists for him to give away. That cumulates in him giving away his strength to Maya and developing a bond where he only gives but receives nothing, a bond that exists solely for Maya’s benefit.
As it has been the case all his life: Adolin gives, even what he shouldn’t be giving, and all just take and take and take. Why should they bother nor care? Adolin is perfect, he is not a person, he cannot suffer from it. Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Maya, Renarin, they take more than they give and they all expect Adolin to be perfect. Not one of them ever considered Adolin may have feelings.
Edit: I think Adolin should be allowed to burst out, to lash out, to scream at them how angry he is, how he feels, to cry if he needs to. I really wish Adolin will be allowed to tell others he deserves they care for him as much as he has cared for them. I want him to stop repressing those feelings and for others to stop ignoring he has them. That’s my wish.
@AeronaGreenjoy: I hope you didn’t take my comment as implying that you (or anyone) would be “better” as a person if you had 20/20 vision. I know I’m new posting here, but I’ve been lurking for a long time and I’ve appreciated your viewpoints and insights. And snark.
I had in mind when Lift thought, “This was who she was. This was who she had to be.” The Stormlight helps her move along her journey to be that person. But it’s Lift’s choice to take each step, and Lift’s concept of where she’s going that guides the path.
I believe healing works along similar lines, somehow, and if it’s confusing and inconsistent, well, it seems confusing and inconsistent in the same way people are. That makes a weird sort of sense to me, since in addition to our pasts, I think we’re also our wishes, dreams, and questions.
I find it interesting that Adolin has always felt like Maya was encouraging him. I don’t remember when he got his Sword. If he feels that way, though, I kinda think that is true. It does imply that if Sword owners would have made a emotional bond with their Swords before now, they too could have felt the Swords’ spren.
I am confused by Shadesmar geography. I thought mountains were trenches. Why are all the candleflame-like human souls floating up in the air? The Tower being made of light is cool, though.
It does sound like Adolin’s Plate was once windrunner armor. Now it thinks of itself as Plate, so manefests as bits of blue on the Shadesmar side. How do living spren in the physical realm look, though? If Adolin could see where Syl was, would she show up as a candleflame?